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Finish the meeting summary

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Further reduced the quoted transcript, summarise some discussions, add conclusions and subheadings
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doc/devel/meeting_summary/2011-04-13.txt
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@ -24,85 +24,29 @@ _Protocol written by Ichthyo_
New Website Page Layout
-----------------------
Summary what is discussed
_Francesco Siddi_ has augmented his Layout proposal and already built up two page templtes to
cover most of the layout needs of the Lumiera website and documentation resources. However,
some points with the code generated by Asciidoc turned out to be problematic.
_cehteh_ points out that...
In a link:http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.lumiera.general/2330[message preceeding the meeting],
today _ichthyo_ highlighted some general concerns which might need further discussion and maybe
a decision.
_joelholdsworth_ adds....
Conclusion
~~~~~~~~~~
* do this
* do that
Recurring Topics
----------------
Discussion of open link:/documentation/devel/rfc.html[design process] drafts.
Prop1
~~~~~
link:/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/SomeProposal[descriptive name]
Summary what issues are discussed
..Details..
Conclusion:: drop it
Next meeting
------------
The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
''''
utilising horizontal space
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Resolution of displays has been largely increased, especially on desktop computers, with
a tendency towards ``widescreen'' aspect ratio. While, on the other hand, text content
is still mostly vertically oriented. This leads to the question how to make use
of this additional space in horizontal direction, while still also supporting
the not-so large displays.
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-13 22:48:05] <fsiddi> there are still some layout issues
[2011-04-13 22:48:13] <fsiddi> i'm working on them
[2011-04-13 22:48:45] <cehteh> that comes with the point about upgrading the webserver ...
[2011-04-13 22:49:00] <cehteh> does newer asciidoc improve this soemhow already?
[2011-04-13 22:49:05] <fsiddi> no
[2011-04-13 22:49:13] <fsiddi> so there is no need on my side to upgrade
[2011-04-13 22:49:24] <cehteh> good to know
[2011-04-13 22:49:37] <cehteh> i had the impression it may make your life easier
[2011-04-13 22:50:02] <cehteh> for the nobug documentation upgrading fixed a lot of bugs
[2011-04-13 22:50:32] <fsiddi> anyway if you'll find the time to upgrade, it will be good maybe for other things
[2011-04-13 22:49:18] <cehteh> ok
...
[2011-04-13 22:51:42] <fsiddi> the vertical navigation template
[2011-04-13 22:51:53] <fsiddi> i read ichthyo notes
[2011-04-13 22:52:32] <fsiddi> and i'm not sure about this horizontal space concept
[2011-04-13 22:52:45] <fsiddi> could you clarify, please?
[2011-04-13 22:53:09] <ichthyo> todays, the screens can get pretty wide
[2011-04-13 22:53:24] <ichthyo> so there is a huge amount of horizontal space
[2011-04-13 22:53:39] <ichthyo> while most documents are rater organised vertically (for good reasons)
[2011-04-13 22:53:45] <cehteh> 23" 16:9 with 2048x1152 in front of me
[2011-04-13 22:56:19] <cehteh> http://www.spiegel.de/ looks already ugly on my 12" laptop by default
[2011-04-13 22:54:01] <ichthyo> e.g. if I enlarge my browser here to full screen
[2011-04-13 22:54:13] <ichthyo> the current layout just covers less then half the space
[2011-04-13 22:54:13] <cehteh> is it possibly to flow text in 2 columns on wide screens?
[2011-04-13 22:54:35] <ichthyo> cehteh: thats rather tricky and involved
[2011-04-13 22:54:41] <fsiddi> exactly
[2011-04-13 22:54:51] <ichthyo> guess that won't work without entering more java script coding
[2011-04-13 22:54:53] <fsiddi> it is possible, but very tough
[2011-04-13 22:55:01] <cehteh> well i dislike pages which dont use most of the screen and leave it empty
[2011-04-13 22:55:03] <fsiddi> CSS3 can do it almost on its own
[2011-04-13 22:55:22] <fsiddi> but it's not cross browser yet
....
[2011-04-13 22:55:35] <ichthyo> so my idea was just to let us discuss how we could use that additional space, when its available
[2011-04-13 22:56:08] <ichthyo> I mean, just lets discuss open ended -- what possibilities do we see for that?
[2011-04-13 22:55:42] <cehteh> if the screen is wide enough they should make 'some' use of it .. maybe just using biggier fonts
[2011-04-13 22:55:43] <ichthyo> and if that is feasible
[2011-04-13 22:56:08] <ichthyo> I mean, just lets discuss open ended
[2011-04-13 22:56:25] <ichthyo> what possibilities do we see for that?
[2011-04-13 22:56:46] <ichthyo> using 2 columns would be one possibility, but that is tough and demading to get to work properly
[2011-04-13 22:57:02] <fsiddi> there are basically 2 ways
[2011-04-13 22:57:18] <fsiddi> 1 is to use liquid layout
@ -116,7 +60,15 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-13 22:59:52] <fsiddi> (from a design point of view)
[2011-04-13 22:59:54] <fsiddi> :)
[2011-04-13 23:00:01] * cehteh likes (or rather demands) that browser zoom (ctrl-+) works well on the lumiera page
...
---------------------
using a »liquid layout«?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.-- liquid <--> not liquid --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-13 23:05:14] <fsiddi> ok, so apart from that, the discussion is liquid vs not liquid
[2011-04-13 23:05:31] <ichthyo> and also what possibilities there are
[2011-04-13 23:05:43] <fsiddi> ichthyo: what do you mean?
@ -189,47 +141,29 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-13 23:18:03] <ichthyo> i.e. limiting the maximum width, but allowing some liquid expansion below that
[2011-04-13 23:17:55] <fsiddi> i'm not sure that just CSS is possible
[2011-04-13 23:18:20] <ichthyo> If I recall right, it used several nested containers
[2011-04-13 23:18:17] <cehteh> wtf is liquid?
[2011-04-13 23:18:23] * cehteh is no web developer
[2011-04-13 23:18:27] <cehteh> free floating text?
[2011-04-13 23:18:32] <ichthyo> cehteh: liquid means, that the sizes adjust
[2011-04-13 23:18:55] <cehteh> boxes where the content is rendered?
[2011-04-13 23:18:36] <fsiddi> sorry guys
[2011-04-13 23:18:42] <fsiddi> let me clarify
[2011-04-13 23:18:51] <fsiddi> I thought you were familiar with the term
[2011-04-13 23:18:55] <ichthyo> I am
[2011-04-13 23:19:03] <cehteh> yes i am the web noob here
[2011-04-13 23:19:20] <ichthyo> ... while I did quite a lot in the past, but mostly web applications, shops and the like
[2011-04-13 23:19:37] <cehteh> cant you just give a max-width=200em for a container for example?
[2011-04-13 23:19:47] <fsiddi> yes
[2011-04-13 23:19:53] <fsiddi> it is possible
[2011-04-13 23:19:59] <ichthyo> and then you set an "overflow mode"
[2011-04-13 23:20:14] <cehteh> and whats overflow mode?
[2011-04-13 23:20:28] <ichthyo> overflow mode is: adjust, clip, scrollbars
[2011-04-13 23:20:17] <ichthyo> and if I recall correct, then the trick was to put a second container in that, with witdh 100%
[2011-04-13 23:20:54] <fsiddi> i think we can set this
[2011-04-13 23:21:03] <fsiddi> i'll investigate the possibilities we mentioned
[2011-04-13 23:21:08] <fsiddi> and make a report in 1 week
[2011-04-13 23:21:35] <ichthyo> fsiddi: that would be cool
[2011-04-13 23:21:52] <ichthyo> I'll too try to dig in my old notes, maybe I'll find the example I have in mind
---------------------
[2011-04-13 23:21:41] <fsiddi> now i'l like to mention the 2nd and final point
[2011-04-13 23:22:52] <fsiddi> my 2nd point is: navigation
[2011-04-13 23:23:33] <fsiddi> can somebody help me with reimplementing the original nav system
[2011-04-13 23:23:50] <cehteh> the menu?
[2011-04-13 23:23:56] <ichthyo> yes, of course
[2011-04-13 23:23:58] <fsiddi> that reads the url and opens up the tree at the right point
[2011-04-13 23:24:07] <fsiddi> that's pretty important
[2011-04-13 23:24:26] <fsiddi> after that works, it'll be just fixes in the layout
[2011-04-13 23:24:45] <ichthyo> of course I'll help, just I don't know the new menu system so well
[2011-04-13 23:24:54] <ichthyo> so we'll should just pair up on that
[2011-04-13 23:25:06] <fsiddi> cool
[2011-04-13 23:25:29] <ichthyo> maybe we should just set up a separate meeting here on IRC, where we can discuss that?
[2011-04-13 23:25:41] <ichthyo> (you and me, that is)
[2011-04-13 23:25:44] <fsiddi> so will you have time to work on it next week?
[2011-04-13 23:26:45] <fsiddi> i'll poke you after my report on the 1st point then
[2011-04-13 23:28:23] <ichthyo> well I'd like to bring up the question regarding color
Regarding the handling of *vertical scrolling*, the conclusion was to stick to the defaults
as much as possible. Especially, scrollbars should rather be left to the browser, not added
to the content area. We might consider to fix the navigation block relative to the browser window
though, if that is doable with too much complications. Moreover, this navigation block, holding
the (vertical) tree-like menu, should be made sufficiently large in vertical direction, but might
show scrollbars in case of overflow.
Navigation menu
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
we still need to find a way how to make the new +JQuery+ based navigation menu open and highlight
the _current_ page automatically. _fsiddi_ and _ichthyo_ will work out a solution in a separate meeting
on IRC next week.
Colour scheme
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.gray shades or using a colour scheme?
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-13 23:28:23] <ichthyo> I'd like to bring up the question regarding color
[2011-04-13 23:28:36] <ichthyo> and I'll ask especially you, fsiddi
[2011-04-13 23:28:44] <ichthyo> you know, colours are a matter of taste
[2011-04-13 23:29:15] <ichthyo> thus I'd say, as you did the general layout, you have an important say in that
@ -255,73 +189,52 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-13 23:32:37] <ichthyo> according to my experience
[2011-04-13 23:32:47] <ichthyo> it helps a lot when you set a clear style guide early
[2011-04-13 23:33:41] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-13 23:33:51] <ichthyo> so what was the conclusion regarding the scrollbars?
[2011-04-13 23:34:19] <ichthyo> do we want scrollbars on the content area, or do we want the header, footer just to scroll away
[2011-04-13 23:34:33] <ichthyo> and do we want the navigation block fixed (relative to the screen)
[2011-04-13 23:34:42] <ichthyo> or let it scroll away too?
[2011-04-13 23:35:59] <cehteh> for general content, have it fixed, for documentation scroll it away?
[2011-04-13 23:36:10] <ichthyo> the simplest solution is just to leave evertything scroll away of course
[2011-04-13 23:36:27] <cehteh> documentation pages need to be able to navigate within this documentation
[2011-04-13 23:36:45] <cehteh> next/previous/top and maybe few related pages
[2011-04-13 23:36:58] <cehteh> and back to home/home of documentation
[2011-04-13 23:37:06] <cehteh> but not more i think
[2011-04-13 23:37:21] <ichthyo> thats the point, it can get cluttered
[2011-04-13 23:37:52] <cehteh> yes, leave only the minimal necessary things
[2011-04-13 23:38:08] <ichthyo> well... *if* we want to keep the navigation (vertical menu) fixed, there are some problems
[2011-04-13 23:38:12] <cehteh> at least the documentation should be readable on a small device, webpad, netbook even smartphone
[2011-04-13 23:38:46] <ichthyo> namely: what to do on unexpectedly small pages, and what to do when the menu tree itself
gets very large, so it doesn't fit on one page, even in half collapsed state, that is
[2011-04-13 23:39:29] <cehteh> you cant fix/address everything
[2011-04-13 23:39:42] <ichthyo> of course, but how to degrade then
[2011-04-13 23:39:49] <ichthyo> allow a scrollbar to appear?
[2011-04-13 23:39:51] <cehteh> there should be some safety marigin but otherwise just the browsers default fallbacks shall apply
[2011-04-13 23:40:45] <cehteh> in the worst case then the defaults are the best, the user is used how his device handles this
[2011-04-13 23:40:57] <ichthyo> good point
[2011-04-13 23:41:00] <fsiddi> right now the tree expands, scrollbars automatically appear
[2011-04-13 23:41:20] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-13 23:41:47] <fsiddi> and atm i would not consider portable devices for accessing the documentation
[2011-04-13 23:43:59] <fsiddi> anyway, i am about to leave for tonight
[2011-04-13 23:44:08] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-13 23:44:19] <ichthyo> I think we're through with the web page design questions for now
[2011-04-13 23:44:26] <fsiddi> good
[2011-04-13 23:44:33] <ichthyo> :)
[2011-04-13 23:45:32] <skangas> Hi.
[2011-04-13 23:45:40] <ichthyo> Hello skangas !
[2011-04-13 23:47:53] <skangas> I will actually just pop in to say hi this time.
[2011-04-13 23:48:18] <ichthyo> skangas: how's life? had a busy time?
[2011-04-13 23:48:24] <skangas> I have late nights and early mornings at the moment, so I need my sleep. ;-)
[2011-04-13 23:48:33] <ichthyo> ;-)
[2011-04-13 23:48:42] <skangas> ichthyo, Yeah, I am quite busy for the rest of this semester.
[2011-04-13 23:49:06] <skangas> I am hoping things will change once summer comes. They usually do.
[2011-04-13 23:49:42] <ichthyo> hopefully you've got interesting things to learn and program right now...
[2011-04-13 23:49:46] <skangas> And, I decided not to apply for GSoC, so I know there will be time. :-)
[2011-04-13 23:50:09] <cehteh> Lumiera Summer of Code :P
[2011-04-13 23:50:12] <skangas> Yeah, it is basically math and compilers currently. And even a bit of Prolog.
[2011-04-13 23:50:18] <ichthyo> LuSoC
[2011-04-13 23:50:19] <cehteh> cool :)
[2011-04-13 23:50:43] <ichthyo> heh, I really enjoyed that compiler building lections
[2011-04-13 23:50:46] <cehteh> http://dtai.cs.kuleuven.be/problog/index.html stomped on that recently .. would be fun to play with it
[2011-04-13 23:51:35] <cehteh> http://www.dcc.fc.up.pt/~vsc/Yap/clpbn/ is also cool .. unfortunally i think development stalled a bit
[2011-04-13 23:51:40] <skangas> cehteh: This looks like (from skimming) exactly like the mathematical models I have been playing around with all day in school.
[2011-04-13 23:51:46] <cehteh> uhm ok lets go on with the metting
[2011-04-13 23:52:21] <ichthyo> two further topics, related:
[2011-04-13 23:52:25] <ichthyo> the "impressum"
[2011-04-13 23:52:27] <ichthyo> the license
[2011-04-13 23:52:46] <cehteh> ah yes, i seen you added serveral licenses ..
[2011-04-13 23:53:08] <cehteh> we should make more clear which license lumiera is under
[2011-04-13 23:53:25] <cehteh> only one 'license' page .. with gplv2
[2011-04-13 23:53:50] <cehteh> and then 'other licenses' pages and explain where they are used
[2011-04-13 23:52:56] <ichthyo> for the impressum, as said
[2011-04-13 23:53:08] <ichthyo> I volunteer to put my name in there
[2011-04-13 23:53:25] <ichthyo> so we sort-of share the consequences
[2011-04-13 23:54 ] <cehteh> for the impressum .. fine if you do, if you want you can add me too
[2011-04-13 23:54 ] <cehteh> and we have to figure out where to place the impressum .. iirc it must be on the homepage
[2011-04-13 23:54 ] <cehteh> but it doesnt need to be in the menu
[2011-04-13 23:55 ] <cehteh> just a very tiny links in the footer is enough
---------------------
Webserver upgrade and the »reference distribution«
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Server upgrade discussion --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 00:25:59] <cehteh> ok next point:
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> - Webserver update to squeeze (new asciidoc, keep ichthyos hand
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> installed trac)
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> - Do we want to bump our 'reference' distribution to squeeze too?
[2011-04-14 00:26:19] <cehteh> ... webserver .. as soon as possible, but no urge
[2011-04-14 00:26:34] <cehteh> reference .. i just wanted to bring this up, imo there is no need
[2011-04-14 00:26:46] <ichthyo> personally, I will upgrade soon, next 2 weeks hopefully
[2011-04-14 00:27:13] <cehteh> yes i am on squeeze and even with backports already
[2011-04-14 00:27:29] <cehteh> so its prolly even better to have the reference on the devel server a bit behind
[2011-04-14 00:27:28] <ichthyo> I would propose to bump the "reference" the moment when we actually upgrade the
devserver + builddrone
[2011-04-14 00:27:51] <cehteh> well the devserver will be upgraded when we bump the reference
[2011-04-14 00:28:10] <cehteh> builddrone will be upgraded sometime next but thats not related to the reference
[2011-04-14 00:28:12] <ichthyo> but for now there is no problem also supporting lenny, but with the note that we'll
drop that support once we run into serious problems
[2011-04-14 00:28:22] <cehteh> yes
[2011-04-14 00:28:30] <cehteh> iirc that would be the reason to bump it
[2011-04-14 00:29:05] <ichthyo> well, IMHO, when we both are on squeeze, then effectively the reference is bumped :-P
[2011-04-14 00:29:40] <cehteh> nah .. the reference is about what builddrone reports to us too
[2011-04-14 00:29:15] <cehteh> i'd stay with lenny as long as we can so .. or maybe if the next stable gets froozen
then we can go to squeeze
[2011-04-14 00:29:51] <cehteh> and what skangas and other gui coders need also
[2011-04-14 00:30:15] <cehteh> i expect that gavl and gui dependencies will be a cause for a bump
[2011-04-14 00:32:50] <cehteh> summarize: bump it someday .. as need arises?
[2011-04-14 00:33:26] <cehteh> or even better. .. no decision yet .. we'll see when its time
---------------------
Website licensing and legal questions
-------------------------------------
.-- Discussion regarding the Web content license --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-13 23:54:14] <skangas> For the record, I agree with what ichthyo said in his first e-mail.
[2011-04-13 23:54:55] <skangas> That "dual licensing under GPL and something comparable" is the best choice.
[2011-04-13 23:55:03] <skangas> Probably CC-BY-SA.
@ -399,131 +312,84 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 00:13:47] <ichthyo> yay!
[2011-04-14 00:13:51] <cehteh> btw duke nukem is delayed
[2011-04-14 00:14:02] <ichthyo> ouch, I'm surprised
---------------------
[2011-04-14 00:14:41] <cehteh> ok lets summarise:
[2011-04-14 00:14:47] <cehteh> ichthyo: you add the impressum
[2011-04-14 00:14:51] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-14 00:15:00] <ichthyo> I clarify the actual licenses we use
[2011-04-14 00:15:07] <cehteh> yes
[2011-04-14 00:15:34] <cehteh> currently its not easily visible which license lumiera falls under
[2011-04-14 00:16:05] <ichthyo> well, it's in the first senctence, and even in bold font
[2011-04-14 00:16:10] <ichthyo> http://lumiera.org/project/legal/legal.html
[2011-04-14 00:16:40] <cehteh> yes but imo there should be only one License menu point, pointing to the gplv2 and our rationale document
[2011-04-14 00:16:56] <skangas> ichthyo, Error on that page Webiste -> Website
[2011-04-14 00:17:09] <cehteh> and then maybe other sub items exactly stating "other licenses" or "license for the documentation"
[2011-04-14 00:17:09] <skangas> I really need to sleep now... Good night!
[2011-04-14 00:17:09] <ichthyo> thanks, noted
[2011-04-14 00:17:45] <ichthyo> skangas: good night, sleep well!
[2011-04-14 00:18:03] <cehteh> if i click on license for some project i dont want to read much there should be just "this is licensed under foolicense" as first prominent sentence
[2011-04-14 00:18:08] <cehteh> n8 skangas
[2011-04-14 00:18:57] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-14 00:18:58] <cehteh> for me now when i seen the 'license' menu after you added it, it unfolded to a list of licenses ..
[2011-04-14 00:19:15] <cehteh> me alreadly thought "wtf" ... guess what some outsider will think :)
[2011-04-14 00:19:45] <ichthyo> :)
Conclusion
~~~~~~~~~~
[2011-04-14 00:20:03] <ichthyo> anyway, I think there are still some minor points left to discuss for this meeting
[2011-04-14 00:20:14] <cehteh> yes .. next one:
[2011-04-14 00:20:30] <cehteh> - Trac spam, solved, whats left to do (delete unused accounts)
[2011-04-14 00:21:00] <cehteh> you told me that its easily to delete the unused accounts ..
but from some i know that they are real users
[2011-04-14 00:21:20] <ichthyo> well.. it is easy to tell those apart
[2011-04-14 00:21:23] <cehteh> i tihnk we should notify this at least on the ml
[2011-04-14 00:21:32] <ichthyo> just need to improve the SQL a bit
[2011-04-14 00:21:55] <ichthyo> the trick is: those "old" inactive accounts are by definition older than
the spam accounts we delete
[2011-04-14 00:21:45] <cehteh> how about creating a category 'people' on trac
[2011-04-14 00:22:03] <cehteh> where everyone who is new is instructed to fill a first ticket ..
[2011-04-14 00:22:29] <cehteh> puts a bit burden on the people, not really a good idea
[2011-04-14 00:22:46] <cehteh> but anyways meanwhile there are a lot more spam accounts, we should regulary wipe them
[2011-04-14 00:22:58] <ichthyo> yes, so for now I'd just run that SQL once a month manually
[2011-04-14 00:23:34] <cehteh> prolly you should do that weekly :P
[2011-04-14 00:23:38] <ichthyo> after some months, if we see it works well always, we can do a little shell script
to issue that SQL
[2011-04-14 00:23:42] <cehteh> crontab ftw
[2011-04-14 00:23:50] <ichthyo> or so, weekly, no prob
[2011-04-14 00:24:02] <cehteh> you stay tuned and care for that?
[2011-04-14 00:24:17] <ichthyo> yes, for the next time, and sometime in summer we make a cronjob
[2011-04-14 00:25:28] <cehteh> eh just logged in. .. prolly 80% are spam meanwhile
[2011-04-14 00:25:32] <ichthyo> hehe
* Website content and documentation will be dual-licensed GPL 2+ and CC-3.0-BY-SA
* _Ichthyo_ will clarify the actual licenses used on the ``license'' page
* moreover he'll care to add an _Impressum_ -- as required by german law
[2011-04-14 00:25:59] <cehteh> ok next point:
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> - Webserver update to squeeze (new asciidoc, keep ichthyos hand
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> installed trac)
[2011-04-14 00:26:07] <cehteh> - Do we want to bump our 'reference' distribution to squeeze too?
[2011-04-14 00:26:19] <cehteh> ... webserver .. as soon as possible, but no urge
[2011-04-14 00:26:34] <cehteh> reference .. i just wanted to bring this up, imo there is no need
[2011-04-14 00:26:46] <ichthyo> personally, I will upgrade soon, next 2 weeks hopefully
[2011-04-14 00:27:13] <cehteh> yes i am on squeeze and even with backports already
[2011-04-14 00:27:29] <cehteh> so its prolly even better to have the reference on the devel server a bit behind
[2011-04-14 00:27:28] <ichthyo> I would propose to bump the "reference" the moment when we actually upgrade the
devserver + builddrone
[2011-04-14 00:27:51] <cehteh> well the devserver will be upgraded when we bump the reference
[2011-04-14 00:28:10] <cehteh> builddrone will be upgraded sometime next but thats not related to the reference
[2011-04-14 00:28:12] <ichthyo> but for now there is no problem also supporting lenny, but with the note that we'll
drop that support once we run into serious problems
[2011-04-14 00:28:22] <cehteh> yes
[2011-04-14 00:28:30] <cehteh> iirc that would be the reason to bump it
[2011-04-14 00:29:05] <ichthyo> well, IMHO, when we both are on squeeze, then effectively the reference is bumped :-P
[2011-04-14 00:29:40] <cehteh> nah .. the reference is about what builddrone reports to us too
[2011-04-14 00:29:15] <cehteh> i'd stay with lenny as long as we can so .. or maybe if the next stable gets froozen
then we can go to squeeze
[2011-04-14 00:29:51] <cehteh> and what skangas and other gui coders need also
[2011-04-14 00:30:15] <cehteh> i expect that gavl and gui dependencies will be a cause for a bump
[2011-04-14 00:32:50] <cehteh> summarize: bump it someday .. as need arises?
[2011-04-14 00:33:26] <cehteh> or even better. .. no decision yet .. we'll see when its time
[2011-04-14 00:33:40] <cehteh> ok next point:
[2011-04-14 00:34:57] <cehteh> - Go over pending RFC's (quick, not in detail this time)
[2011-04-14 00:35:11] <cehteh> should become regular on each meeting
Trac spam
---------
After an increasing amount of Spam tickets in the link:http://issues.lumiera.org[Trac],
_Ichthyo_ installed the Trac antispam plugin (which required an upgrade to Trac 0.12,
actually repackaging a current version into an pre-release debian package, as the
official debian package isn't on the required level). After a bit of training,
the Bayesian filter successfully blocked any further spam tickets.
The remaining problem are spam user accounts though. To deal with that problem, _Ichthyo_
designed a custom SQL query based on some obvious heuristics, which seems to pinpoint
all spurious accounts. We'll try to execute that SQL for some time manually, and --
in case it behaves sane -- automate that cleanup as a cronjob in some months.
_Cehteh_ points out that this new policy should at least be anounced on the Mailinglist.
Recurring Topic: Design process entries
---------------------------------------
Discussion of open link:/documentation/devel/rfc.html[design process] drafts.
Since some time, no further discussion happened regarding the currently _pending_
RfC entries. Agreement is that we should again return to the former routine and
revisit the relevant design process entries in each developer meeting.
.-- the Application Install proposal --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 00:48:25] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/ApplicationInstall.html
[2011-04-14 00:48:40] <ichthyo> maybe only pick out some interestin ones or some which are quick to decide
[2011-04-14 00:49:06] <cehteh> well i want to go over all pending .. then we can put notes there "boring for the next meeting"
[2011-04-14 00:49:24] <cehteh> and next time we pcik only the interesting ones
[2011-04-14 00:49:33] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-14 00:49:42] <cehteh> for example this application install .. is boring .. you did a lot work, imo you can finalize it
[2011-04-14 00:50:04] <cehteh> (i dint read it in detail now)
[2011-04-14 00:50:25] <cehteh> maybe we want another state "accepted" ..
[2011-04-14 00:50:44] <cehteh> that is the interesting things which we know we will not drop but which are not finalized yet
[2011-04-14 00:53:02] <cehteh> adding that to rfc.sh would be trivial
[2011-04-14 00:54:29] <cehteh> the application install came first... we need it, you did it well .. it could be 'finalized' or
rather that would be some 'acceepted' candidate ..
[2011-04-14 00:53:25] <ichthyo> I think, the existing states are enough
[2011-04-14 00:53:26] <cehteh> yeah .. i think we dont need to 'finalize' and decide finally now
[2011-04-14 00:53:44] <ichthyo> either really discuss something and then decide, or just leave it in draft
[2011-04-14 00:53:50] <cehteh> well i just started alphabetically
[2011-04-14 00:54:05] <ichthyo> lets just postpone the application install and leave it in draft!
[2011-04-14 00:54:29] <cehteh> the application install came first... we need it, you did it well .. it could be 'finalized' or rather that would be some 'acceepted' candidate ..
---------------------
[2011-04-14 00:54:24] <ichthyo> Delectus?
[2011-04-14 00:54:40] <cehteh> delectus can be parked until someone else comes up with it
[2011-04-14 00:54:48] <cehteh> (btw i can do this right here and commit it)
[2011-04-14 00:54:51] <ichthyo> yes, so thats an decision, lets park it
[2011-04-14 00:54:57] <ichthyo> please do
[2011-04-14 00:55:42] <ichthyo> question: do the parked onees also go into a different directory?
[2011-04-14 00:55:49] <ichthyo> I'm asking because of the menu
[2011-04-14 00:56:04] <cehteh> iirc not .. but i can do that
[2011-04-14 00:56:13] <cehteh> (adding to rfc.sh)
[2011-04-14 00:56:17] <cehteh> let me look
[2011-04-14 00:56:46] <cehteh> no ... i make a rfc_parked/ dir
[2011-04-14 00:57:05] <ichthyo> ok that would be nice
[2011-04-14 00:57:34] <cehteh> ok noted
[2011-04-14 00:57:34] <ichthyo> next one
[2011-04-14 00:57:47] <ichthyo> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/DesignParamAutomation.html
[2011-04-14 00:57:55] <cehteh> keep pending?
[2011-04-14 00:57:57] <ichthyo> well, its Idea, I have to expand on that
[2011-04-14 00:57:57] <ichthyo> yes
[2011-04-14 00:58:01] <ichthyo> please keep pending
Delectus Shot Evaluator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agreement to _park_ it until someone else comes up to advance this topic further.
[2011-04-14 00:58:11] <cehteh> Design Process : Clip Cataloging System
[2011-04-14 00:58:16] <cehteh> park
[2011-04-14 00:58:20] <ichthyo> park
Clip Cataloging System
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
similarily to _park_ until someone cares....
[2011-04-14 00:58:31] <ichthyo> LumieraForwardIterator
[2011-04-14 00:58:37] <cehteh> Design Process: Lumiera Forward Iterator
DesignParamAutomation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Keep _pending_ -- _ichthyo_ will expand on that
Lumiera Forward Iterator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 00:58:39] <cehteh> pending
[2011-04-14 00:58:48] <ichthyo> well, this is entirely an C++ topic
[2011-04-14 00:58:58] <ichthyo> I for my part vote for accepting it now
[2011-04-14 00:59:11] <ichthyo> I use this concept now since almost a year and it worked out well
@ -532,8 +398,17 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:00:14] <cehteh> but if it works for you, i put it on 'maybe finalize' .. means i read through it and finalize it
when i have no objections
[2011-04-14 01:00:24] <ichthyo> yes, agreed
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:00:45] <cehteh> Design the Render Nodes interface
Design the Render Nodes interface
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:01:04] <cehteh> thats definitely pending .. needs discussion
[2011-04-14 01:01:33] <ichthyo> yes
[2011-04-14 01:01:54] <cehteh> maybe we park it to get rid of it for now since this is months ahead?
@ -541,17 +416,34 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:02:44] <ichthyo> that RfC basically sais: PLING PLING PLING, we need to discuss that
[2011-04-14 01:02:53] <cehteh> well, I wont drop it, its a nice place to document the intention about the design
[2011-04-14 01:03:10] <ichthyo> ok, so lets park it
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:03:13] <cehteh> Developer Documentation Structure
Developer Documentation Structure
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--> see link:http://issues.lumiera.org/ticket/763[Ticket #763]
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:03:23] <cehteh> i check that, bring it up to date and finalize it?
[2011-04-14 01:03:36] <ichthyo> i have some objections agains that, see my comment
[2011-04-14 01:03:36] <ichthyo> i have some objections against that, see my comment
[2011-04-14 01:04:00] <ichthyo> I think, the current structure is better than what that RfC proposes
[2011-04-14 01:04:05] <cehteh> yes .. thats what i meant with bring it up to date
[2011-04-14 01:04:39] <cehteh> i can keep it pending .. and then we can finalize it when you agree
[2011-04-14 01:04:49] <ichthyo> ok, so you will update it?
[2011-04-14 01:05:32] <cehteh> yes .. maybe not for next time but i put it on todo
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:05:35] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/EngineInterfaceOverview.html
Engine Interface Overview
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:05:50] <cehteh> pending .. there is lot to do?
[2011-04-14 01:06:02] <ichthyo> sort of
[2011-04-14 01:06:10] <ichthyo> basically that is a high level outline
@ -567,14 +459,21 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:07:43] <cehteh> yes .. lets talk next meeting about that (or some time else)
[2011-04-14 01:07:57] <ichthyo> ok
[2011-04-14 01:08:05] <cehteh> so pending for now
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:08:11] <ichthyo> FeatureBundle
[2011-04-14 01:08:14] <ichthyo> park
[2011-04-14 01:08:26] <cehteh> park
[2011-04-14 01:08:26] <ichthyo> very important, but far future
[2011-04-14 01:08:33] <cehteh> yes
[2011-04-14 01:08:39] <ichthyo> MarbleMode
Feature Bundle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Expected to be very important in the far future, but we don't have the
resources to work on that right now, so _park_ it.
Marble Mode
~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:08:51] <ichthyo> this is also a high level one
[2011-04-14 01:08:57] <ichthyo> I am much in favour of that
[2011-04-14 01:09:09] <ichthyo> but its really kind of conceptual
@ -589,32 +488,31 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:11:58] <cehteh> or we just finalize it as 'concept' we want no matter how we implement it finally
[2011-04-14 01:12:05] <cehteh> yes ok then
[2011-04-14 01:12:10] <ichthyo> yes, ok then
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:12:49] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/NormalizedDeviceCoordinates.html
[2011-04-14 01:12:54] <cehteh> very rough
[2011-04-14 01:13:17] <cehteh> makes a lot of sense .. but unfinished, pending or park?
[2011-04-14 01:13:37] <ichthyo> I'd say park
[2011-04-14 01:13:51] <ichthyo> (I am also much in favour of that one)
[2011-04-14 01:13:42] <cehteh> ok
Normalized Device Coordinates
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still very rough, but basically agreed. +
While it needs more work, it's a bit out of focus right now, so _park it.
[2011-04-14 01:14:16] <ichthyo> ProcHighLevel
[2011-04-14 01:14:24] <cehteh> thats rather final now?
[2011-04-14 01:14:26] <ichthyo> my vote goes for accept
[2011-04-14 01:14:35] <cehteh> is it up to date?
[2011-04-14 01:14:41] <ichthyo> no significant addition since almost two years
[2011-04-14 01:14:46] <ichthyo> yes, its up to date
[2011-04-14 01:14:52] <cehteh> ok final
[2011-04-14 01:15:37] <ichthyo> and, btw, I know that you also supported many of those ideas
[2011-04-14 01:15:39] <cehteh> placement ..
[2011-04-14 01:15:48] <ichthyo> I think same for that
[2011-04-14 01:15:57] <cehteh> up to date?
[2011-04-14 01:16:00] <ichthyo> if you don't have a problem with it, I vote for accept
[2011-04-14 01:16:28] <ichthyo> yes, as far as I can see, its up to date
[2011-04-14 01:16:32] <cehteh> yes for me the question is only if you need to refine some final things before accepting it
[2011-04-14 01:17:06] <cehteh> ok accept
Proc High Level Model and Placement concept
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's rather final by now. This link:http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc/ProcHighLevelModel.html[proposal]
meanwhile documents the existing design; it's up to date and didn't see significant
additions since almost two years. Generally agreed upon, so it's _final_ now.
[2011-04-14 01:17:18] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/RenderOptimizer.html
The same holds true for the
link:http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc/ProcPlacementMetaphor.html[Placement] proposal
Render Optimizer, Resource Management and Profiling
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:17:19] <cehteh> park
[2011-04-14 01:17:32] <ichthyo> accept for me
[2011-04-14 01:17:56] <ichthyo> that is so much our common understanding meanwhile
@ -642,16 +540,20 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
first sentences, because then we could accept it right away
[2011-04-14 01:21:45] <cehteh> ok pending for now .. i dont want to work on this currently .. other things are more important
[2011-04-14 01:21:47] <ichthyo> we both pretty much agree that we *want* some kind of budget managing and resource usage
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:22:41] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/Roadmap-first.html
[2011-04-14 01:22:45] <cehteh> final?
[2011-04-14 01:22:51] <ichthyo> oops! my fault
[2011-04-14 01:22:55] <cehteh> anything not up to date?
[2011-04-14 01:23:00] <ichthyo> that *was* accepted long ago
[2011-04-14 01:23:13] <cehteh> haha ok
[2011-04-14 01:23:47] <ichthyo> we discussed and accepted that 2009, judging from the comments
[2011-04-14 01:23:49] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/StreamTypeSystem.html
Roadmap
~~~~~~~
The link:http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc/Roadmap-first.html[Roadmap document]
was erroneously not marked as final; +
Seemingly it was decided upon in 2009 already ...
Stream Type System
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:24:06] <ichthyo> very important for me -- my vote is for accept
[2011-04-14 01:24:16] <cehteh> we had some discussion how to maintain metadata ..
[2011-04-14 01:24:40] <cehteh> i vote for accept too but this metadata (which may decribe the type) needs work
@ -670,8 +572,14 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:27:38] <cehteh> i think that needs some time to settle to the right point [tm]
[2011-04-14 01:27:43] <ichthyo> I'm not right away implementing it, but the implementation is rather trivial
[2011-04-14 01:27:48] <ichthyo> so leave it pending
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:28:00] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/ThreadsSignalsAndImportantManagementTasks.html
Threads Signals and important management tasks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.-- Discussion of details --
[caption="☉Transcript☉ "]
----------------------------
[2011-04-14 01:28:33] <cehteh> we need to work together to implement this on the main .. but generally i think this can be
accepted with some refinements
[2011-04-14 01:28:14] <ichthyo> some time ago, we had a short discussion about that
@ -701,50 +609,34 @@ The next meeting will be at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:35:51] <cehteh> anyways .. i accept it .. implementation pending
[2011-04-14 01:37:38] <cehteh> signal handling becomes a 'subsystem' then ... :)
[2011-04-14 01:37:46] <ichthyo> yes, thats what I mean
---------------------
[2011-04-14 01:36:50] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/TimelineSequenceOutput.html
[2011-04-14 01:36:52] <cehteh> final?
[2011-04-14 01:37:00] <ichthyo> definitively final
[2011-04-14 01:38:08] <ichthyo> TimelineSequence: the key point is: we have multiple timelines
[2011-04-14 01:38:28] <ichthyo> and a sequence can be used in multiple timelines
[2011-04-14 01:38:36] <cehteh> yes .. ok for me i think
[2011-04-14 01:38:37] <ichthyo> I think we pretty much agree on that
[2011-04-14 01:39:01] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/UseCases.html
[2011-04-14 01:39:08] <cehteh> nobody cares :P
[2011-04-14 01:39:20] <ichthyo> nobody cares
[2011-04-14 01:39:34] <cehteh> that means parked? or drop?
[2011-04-14 01:39:35] <ichthyo> park it, until we have someone working on the workflow
Session structure -- Timelines, Sequences, Output
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This link:http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/TimelineSequenceOutput.html[proposal]
can be considered definitively final. Key point is: we have multiple timelines and a sequence can be used
in multiple timelines. We pretty much agree on that, thus it counts as _finalised_ now.
[2011-04-14 01:40:01] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/VersionNumberScheme.html
[2011-04-14 01:40:10] <cehteh> accept (after you explained it to me .. )
[2011-04-14 01:40:35] <ichthyo> :-D
[2011-04-14 01:40:14] <ichthyo> accept
Use Cases
~~~~~~~~~
This is an heavyweight proposal regarding the high-level design and general handling of the
Application. This would be really a topic to be discussed in conjection with the ``Workflow''
-- the idea was to have a working group focussed these topics entirely, but there is no one
in charge of that right now. Thus _park_ it for the time being.
[2011-04-14 01:40:41] <cehteh> http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/WebsiteNavigation.html
[2011-04-14 01:40:50] <cehteh> is that final?
[2011-04-14 01:40:55] <cehteh> (up to date)
[2011-04-14 01:41:15] <cehteh> do others need to discuss this .. fsiddi?
[2011-04-14 01:41:27] <ichthyo> there is one point: the tagging of pages
[2011-04-14 01:41:37] <ichthyo> if we remove that, the rest is implemented right now
[2011-04-14 01:42:08] <cehteh> leave it pending and when you meet with fsiidi next time you discuss and fix this?
[2011-04-14 01:42:18] <ichthyo> ok
Version Number Scheme
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The proposal for link:http://lumiera.org/documentation/devel/rfc_pending/VersionNumberScheme.html[Version numbering]
is _accepted_ -- it's considered close to common practice and _ichthyo_ relied on it for the debian
package already.
'''''''''''''
Next meeting
------------
The next meeting will be as usual, at Wednesday May 11, 20:00 UTC
[2011-04-14 01:47:47] <ichthyo> so meeting is finished now, officially...
[2011-04-14 01:47:59] <cehteh> n8 :)
[2011-04-14 01:48:10] <cehteh> well i work a bit .. night owl mode :P
[2011-04-14 01:48:11] <ichthyo> next meeting on 11.5.2011
[2011-04-14 01:48:42] <ichthyo> btw, I'm quite sure I skip LAC this time
[2011-04-14 01:48:52] <cehteh> me too
[2011-04-14 01:48:58] <ichthyo> just overall too much to do right now
[2011-04-14 01:49:15] <cehteh> no lumiera at lac
[2011-04-14 01:49:33] <ichthyo> but I'd be quite interested to come to that FSCONS conference skangas told us about
[2011-04-14 01:49:38] <ichthyo> in october or so
[2011-04-14 01:49:57] <cehteh> lets see .. time & money
[2011-04-14 01:51:12] <ichthyo> ok, going off now
[2011-04-14 01:51:15] * cehteh goes hunting some food
[2011-04-14 01:51:19] <ichthyo> (and hopefully going to bed soon)
[2011-04-14 01:51:21] <cehteh> see you
[2011-04-14 01:51:24] <ichthyo> see you!
----------------------------